Announcer:
This episode is brought to you by One Circle Foundation.
Greg Wright:
Welcome to Social Work Talks. My name is Greg Wright and I'm here with Dr. Kristen Lee, who is an author, a social worker, and an educator. We actually had Dr. Kristen on about four years back on a show about self-care, and it was one of our most downloaded ever. We have her back to talk about being brave and building resiliency. Welcome, Dr. Kris, how are you?
Kristen Lee:
Thank you, Greg. It's a delight to be back. I'm well, thank you. How are you faring?
Greg Wright:
I'm fine. It's a little warm here, but how is it up there in the Boston area for you?
Kristen Lee:
Likewise, it turned, I think, back to around the 80s and it felt crisp and refreshing yesterday, in contrast. So it's good and it's a great time of year for us to be out and about for sure.
Greg Wright:
You actually have a new book out and I was wondering if you could tell us the title and what it's all about?
Kristen Lee:
Indeed. So the name of the book is "Worth the Risk: How to Microdose Bravery to Grow Resilience, Connect More, and Offer Yourself to the World." And this dropped on June 14th. As I say, it hatched because as you know, there's a little empty nest on the cover of the book. It's just been such a delight to partner with, Sounds True. At this moment in time where there's so much enormity, there's a lot of suffering, there's a lot of fear and anxiety and not knowing what's coming around the corner. And this book really offers a lot of evidence-based science and then a lot of the skills and ethos of our social work profession. So that's something I hold very dear in all my writing, is not just looking at ways we can change personally, but what we can do on a systems level to forge ahead with social change.
Greg Wright:
Are you finding now that folks are less averse to taking a risk? Are folks a lot more cautious now?
Kristen Lee:
Well, I think it starts with re-imagining our definition of risk, because I think a lot of people imagine it to be betting it all at the Bellagio or jumping out of a plane or just taking agency over our lives in one fell swoop. And so I think that it's misguided, our ideas about what it is. And so in the book, I really debunk a lot of those myths and help us think about risks that actually align with our value set and risks that can nourish us. And I think, again, that's not necessarily how we initially imagine it to be. So for example, I think a lot of us are just obviously dealing with everything that has transpired, all the trauma of the pandemic and the enormity of that, and it can become very paralytic. It can, I think, risks now or even just being willing to re-enter into life as it is now and coming back into the world, whatever that might mean for all of our own unique variables, finding our way.
So I think risks is a very broad spectrum for all of us. What feels comfortable to one might feel very uncomfortable to another. And so I think it starts for all of us understanding, what risk are worth taking? Let's say for example, you hold a value for social change and social justice and impact, and your heart broken at the level of trauma and the isms in the world, and you want to take a stand. An example of microdosing bravery or asserting yourself towards risk, might be beginning to stand up and use your voice for change and impact or not being a passive bystander, for example. If you see something happening, you find the skills and the courage to say, "This isn't okay. And what if we looked at it in a different way?"
And so I think there's a lot at hand that can make us feel a lot of trepidation or wary about what we can do. I think that's the burning question within our discipline and beyond. If you're a person in the world who's listening right now and you see the devastation at hand, you want to help. And sometimes it can be very hard to know what to do and whether or not that will make an impact. And I think that's really the premise of the book is that the small things we do can have a cumulative effect towards positive change, whether again, that's on the individual level or on the macro level. It doesn't have to be this massive redo.
Greg Wright:
When I look at our politics now, there's just a sense of futility, because it seems like our political parties are at a impasse. Our society is very divided now over a lot of different issues on reproductive rights, on voting, et cetera. So how can a person not be overwhelmed by a feeling like, "What can I do about a system that just looks like it's just not working?"
Kristen Lee:
I think it's a burning question of our moment. It's very fraught right now, and there's so much at hand to try to decipher. And then to your point, there's a lack of proper discourse. There's a lack of listening and empathizing. Cancel culture, to me, I think can reveal that we're trying to hold a level of accountability, particularly for dominant groups. Groups that have oppressed and marginalized, discriminated and violated, particularly for BIPOC communities and LGBTQ. So I think that accountability is essential. I really want to emphasize that.
I think what's also important is if we look at the science of behavior change, for example, we know that shaming and blaming and kind of what's happening particularly within social media feeds, it's not necessarily productive. So for me as a scientist and as a social worker, I always am interested in what will actually help foster more effective dialogue? What will build empathy and camaraderie and connection and candor? And that doesn't mean that we don't hold the level of accountability, but it means that we're willing to look at potential space for common ground.
I think if we look at many of the issues of today, I don't think anyone wants to see more gun violence, for example. I don't think anybody on any side of the spectrum wants to see unwanted pregnancies, for example. And I think for me, I think what grieves me a lot is, and especially as a human resilience researcher, I'm part of a really phenomenal intellectual community where I teach. I'm part of a very dynamic cadre of social work within the social work profession. And I see that in many of these instances, like let's say defunding the police, and that becomes a very, no pun intended, triggering thing, and it sets off a whole bunch of rage. But we also see these amazing examples of including more social workers, for example, and deescalating the mental health situations at hand. And we see a lot of solutions to problems that don't necessarily get the air time within the news cycle or within our social media feeds. We're dealing with algorithms and the feeds feeding us things that antagonize us and then we antagonize one another.
But if we really looked at it through a more data driven lens, a more research driven lens, a deeper understanding of what could help improve the human condition, that could go a long way. But I think ultimately we have a lot to work against because there's a lot of interest in mind that can make money off fighting and off polarization, and yet we're ignoring all the strengths that we have in terms of even modern brain science. I'm super nerdy and obsessed about it, because there's so much that works and that we can understand about the workings of the human mind and how we can redirect it to a better place and what fosters change. And none of that is getting the air time that it really deserves. And we need that in the world to move to a better place, obviously.
Greg Wright:
How does being brave make you a more resilient person?
Kristen Lee:
Well, if we take those risks that we need to take in order to facilitate our own change process and to hopefully have a positive influence in the world, then we have to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. We can't stay stagnant or stay in the same place or go with the status quo. We have to think creatively, perhaps we might think of it as in a non-conventional way, but bravery is about facing what I call in the book, what is and not lamenting over what if. So for example, embracing a what is mindset, is recognizing we are living and we are marinating in a lot of anxiety, fear, and trauma. And all at the same time, there are opportunities to leverage, there are possibilities, there are strengths that we all have and there are strengths within the world that we can leverage. And so focusing on what we talk about is adopting a focus on a locus of control, appreciating what we can do.
And I think that is an act of bravery, is coming to terms with even the difficulties, embracing not only the positive in our lives, but also facing the difficulties. It could be just within ourselves, even having a laugh over our own follies and our own quirks and issues. And then looking more expansively to say, "What does this all mean and how do we move forward productively?" I think if we live in a what if space, it can rent a lot of space in our head. We can fall trap to rumination for example, "What if the pandemic hadn't happened? Or what if this person wasn't elected into office and what if my sister hadn't ghosted me? Or what if my parent hadn't died? Or what if I didn't have this health issue or this mental health issue or all of the above and more?" And that doesn't necessarily get us to a better place. So I think bravery is about accepting what is, and then also figuring out what we can do within our locus of control, where we can foster change in our lives.
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Greg Wright:
I think that a lot of that, it also comes on a personal front, with a level of maturity. I find as I'm aging that I don't try to control everything. I'm not up all night worrying about things. You really learn, things do work out.
Kristen Lee:
I love how you frame it, Greg. I think it's really good wisdom and I think it is part of human maturation. Whatever stage of life we're at, we can continually just recognize that there will be a tremendous amount that we can't change immediately. And I think, I'm always an avoider of trite slogans, but I think that the saying, trust the process, is one that is meaningful. I find meaning in that, because it's so easy, especially for me as a person who struggles with unhealthy overachievement or perfectionism. I also that I have a lived experience of anxiety. I've been very public about that. And it's easy in our wild imagination to conjure up solutions, constant solutions or just even if you're a conscious person and you tune into what's happening in the world, it's so easy to be heartbroken and just to live in that place of strife.
I think to your point, recognizing that if we allow ourselves to be eroded by those conditions, we'll become less effective in living a life of purpose, impact, meaning, joy or really inhibit us if we stay in that mode of just constantly being wary, or to your point, trying to control things that may take time. And I think that's another important element in our culture of expedience, at a time where we just want results so quickly. I wrote an article called Therapy Isn't Grubhub, for example. It doesn't come in 15 minutes. And I think that's just important that we have to realize that trauma recovery, if we look at ourselves through this trauma-informed lens, which is so essential right now, we realize that we are going to be vacillating in and out of very dark emotions. We're going to be grieving what was.
So when I say adopt, a what is life, I don't mean it happens in pop psychology, three easy steps, but just recognizing that it takes time to come to terms with these things. But that if we look to the research and we look to what we know about the brain. In brain plasticity for example, we are wired to heal and to overcome and to maneuver and to adapt. And I think that's a message we all need to really sit with and take in and recognize, because I think sometimes we feel like we're not resilient or we feel worked up, we feel overstimulated and overwhelmed and unhopeful, and yet we are wired for that resilience. And again, bravery is a process. Building resilience is a process. And the more we can chip away at that, strategically and thoughtfully, the more we can find ourselves better positioned to face what is.
Greg Wright:
So do you think that everyone should try out a new hobby or experience another type of food at a restaurant? How can a person get out of a box and a habit and actually take a risk and try something new?
Kristen Lee:
I think what can be potentially motivating is knowing that the brain really does crave novelty and variety. And that for any of us, if we did that self inventory, thought about, "Oh, there's something I was biting my nails to try, and then I tried it and I loved it. Or I was afraid at work to say I was struggling. And then when I did, it invited greater candor and comradery. Or I was afraid to ride a horse and then it was the most fun thing ever. Or I always wanted to try stand up comedy and then I did and I loved it." So I think we have to just look back and chronicle through our lives the times where maybe we were hesitant or reluctant and then what that payoff was. And yes, to your point, I think right now creativity, identifying activities that help us to toggle out of the intensive stress that we're all facing. Creating those reprieve moments through things that maybe we don't even know would serve in that way. So I think we do have to be willing to try new experiences.
And I think what I've learned as a person who has had the privilege of serving people with anxiety, and then also as someone who's experienced it, is that exposing ourselves, this is evidence based treatment, exposing ourselves to the things that make us uncomfortable, very strategically, in an integrated way, which just means very slowly, like microdosing, take a little bit in, feel uncomfortable, feel a little bit of that feeling in your stomach and then stepping back and saying, "Oh, okay, I'm still here. What I was worried about didn't happen and now I'm ready to take that next step and build greater traction and momentum." And that really is based on the gold standard for anxiety intervention, which is exposure treatment, exposure therapy.
And that's very much a bedrock principle of Worth the Risk, is that we don't have to just confront it. Let's say for example, you're in a relationship and there's something difficult happening and you want to have a conversation, use a chip away approach, use the microdose approach. Don't feel like you have to sit down and just air all the grievances all at once. Maybe you just say, "It would mean a lot to me if you understand this about me. Or I need this right now, and I'm asking for your empathy, I'm asking for your ear." So I think just for any of us getting comfortable in these ways does have a big payoff over time. Again, it's not going to happen in one hot second, but it can happen over time and then that will have that effect of building our resilience in the long run.
Greg Wright:
Dr. Kris, I think another factor in our society, and it's evident on our social media, is this idea of perfection. Everybody who's out there doing things, they're an expert. Why should I try out anything that's new if I'm going to look like a fool at it? Everybody wants to look like an expert. They don't want to appear at all to be vulnerable. And so are you also like think that that keeps a lot of folks from actually taking risk?
Kristen Lee:
Indeed. And a study was done over the last 10 years around perfectionism, and they said that it went up by 33% with social comparison as the driving force. We also know, as a sub point, that social anxiety is the fastest growing anxiety spectrum disorder. So to me, we're looking at curated versions of each other online, portraying a certain vibe or feeling, and we think that we have to portray these perfectionistic images to each other. It's a very hyper competitive global market as well. And the definition of success is being so narrowly defined. The metrics have really become harmful to our wellbeing. We're seeing that all over the data. So I think that, I always say, "It's better to risk looking foolish than to feel bad." And I think that our lives, how sad would it be to say, "Oh," at the end of someone's life, "Oh, I had 1,476 followers on LinkedIn, or I had all these likes on my feed." It's such a strange way in which we're all trying to build our self-worth.
And what research really shows is that that level of social comparison can become erosive. And I think perfectionism is like the ultimate disillusion. What is even perfect? And we know how false these things are on social media. I think we've seen the whistle blown in many ways. There's been some great documentaries, for example, and I think even some great thought leaders who have just said, "This isn't the truth of the situation." So I think we all have to be careful discerners of what we're taking in and what we're believing, using our critical thinking caps, so to speak, to be more discerning.
And I think ultimately it comes back to what I said earlier, which is that when we know our values, when we have clarity over what is important to us and what we know helps us to flourish as humans, which ultimately for many, if we look across the research, it's connection with each other. And if we're just putting up false images of ourselves, false identities, that's not what allows us to connect. And in my research around resilience and identity, the ultimate is being able to again, own our authentic selves and live in that kind of space. So I think we have to just be very careful.
Greg Wright:
Well, I'm going to take you up on it. So I have a few cousins and they are golfers, avid golfers, and I'm not. I have never golfed at all. And they asked me out, I'm like, "I don't want to go out there and look like an idiot on the golf course." But I read, you are actually suggesting microdosing, so there's a Topgolf. It opened up a few miles away. So I'm going to take some lessons, I'm going to microdose on this, and then I'm going to take a risk. So I'm already incorporating a few of the lessons that you're trying to impart, so yeah.
Kristen Lee:
That's a beautiful example. I love that.
Greg Wright:
Yeah. Well, I also want to talk about the fact that you are also a comedian as well. I mean, amongst other things, a social worker, a therapist, a researcher, an educator, you're also a comedian. And that must have taken a level of risk and bravery to do that. So if you could talk about how you made that leap into that world? Let us know.
Kristen Lee:
Well, I think a way I could put it to you is I was the first in my family to attend college. So I remember just when I got my MSW was such a dream realized. And a way I could put it, is I feel like I took my whole life trying to get people to take me seriously and now I've undone it. But what I will say is I have always valued the arts tremendously, and I've been obsessed with comedy my whole life. And I think for anyone, whether they are in social work or related disciplines or you're just a person listening, trying to find your way through life, we know that humor is so vital. And I think we look at resilience research and it talks about humor as a protective factor. So I've always used it in my life and been obsessed with it.
And then over the past few years, I decided that I would do some formal training. So it wasn't like I just showed up on stage one day. So ultimately too, I give talks around the world on resilience and building healthy mental health cultures. And again, in my teaching work and that consulting work, I always used humor in my talks. I was like, "I'm just going to flip the model. I'm just going to go all in with the comedy and then have the positive underlying message and the positive underlying cause." But again, I didn't do it overnight. I started to read a lot of books of comedians, a lot of memoirs. You know that I start Worth the Risk talking about Ms. Pat, a comedian who, if you want to just hear a story about someone who went through enormous trauma and then comes on stage and tells her traumatic story in such a profound way, it's just incredible.
So I start the book with a homage to her as a Black woman. She grew up in poverty and the trauma she went through and the way that she was able to tell her story so bravely, really inspired me. And I just started a bit at a time, weaving humor into my typical practice and then getting training and then in the pandemic, it felt like very absurd to start a comedy show. It's like, that's absurd, but I could see the level of acuity. I could see that even in my own life that even with all the practices I do around self-care and staying doing well, I was still missing something. And that's when I just decided to launch the show. And it benefits the National Alliance on Mental Illness, AAKOMA project, which focuses on BIPOC mental health access. So there's a total method to my madness.
And I will say I take humor seriously, which sounds like a paradox, but I think that it's a different way of telling our stories. It's a different way of, just to be frank, to call BS on societies, idiocracies, just idiosyncrasies, to look at ourselves in a more humane way and tell those stories. And I think obviously comedy can conjure controversy, there's all that piece, but I think for a lot of us, we could really use it. One again, as a source of therapeutic value in our own lives, but one that could be a real teaching tool in the world. And so I'm completely enthralled by it, but yeah, it didn't like, I didn't just decide one day, I'm just going to do this. It really came step by step, strategically through
Greg Wright:
Microdosing. Microdosing...
Kristen Lee:
I microdosed it, but it's again, if people, I thought too, I've had a lot of people at work turn up to my shows and I'm thinking like, "Are they going to think I'm really weird?" And then I'm like, "Who cares? I am. And I'm also serious." We can be all these things in our identities. And I think more people are showing that, that it's not just being this stiff buttoned up academic or I'm a social worker and everything is so grave and heavy, and I think we can almost feel guilt. I do sometimes have to push away that guilt and say, or just to feel bad, I don't want people to think I'm not taking the time seriously. I think the point is I am, and I'm using this as a tool to maybe illuminate things that need to be illuminated.
And I think creating that levity can go a long way for all of us. I don't know about you, but there were times when I could only receive the news through Trevor Noah. I had to watch the Daily Show, because it is a lot for us to take in and it can become paralytic. And I don't take lightly how this new cycle can be erosive. It's not that we ignore what's happening, but how do we creatively use our minds in ways that can help us stay and do well?
Greg Wright:
Absolutely. So a final question. How can social workers actually incorporate the lessons in your book into their daily practice and their work with clients?
Kristen Lee:
I focus a lot, there's actually a whole session on, You Are Not Your Roles, and then there's another one, You Are Not Your Accomplishments. But I think for us in human work and those devoted to social change and elevating the human condition, the level of trauma and vicarious trauma at hand, is a lot. And I feel like whenever I speak to folks, the burning question is, "Am I doing enough?" And this is a question to be honest, that I ask myself a lot as well. And it actually breaks my heart. I think the work that we do is sacred. It's so vital in this world, and it feels like no matter what we do, it would never be enough. So I think the microdosing concept is important for any of us in this kind of work. To recognize that we also can give ourselves permission to nourish ourselves.
And that's kind of like a nod back to the podcast that was the most downloaded podcast, the "Burnout and Self-Care" podcast. But it's so hard to give ourselves permission to again, cultivate awe, gratitude, joy, to have fun. We almost stigmatize leisure, but I think that burnout, being such a risk of our occupation, begs us to this action of creating that time. And I think a microdose of risk is just saying, "I'm worth it too. I need it too." Or to cry uncle and be like, "I also need help." A lot of us have trouble asking for help, and I see that as a really important microdose. It could be at work with a supervisor, it could be with a trusted colleague or friend or family member. But I think even us saying, These times have become so erosive, we also need more help than we have before." And asking for it. I think that could be the ultimate step of our own recovery process and our own process of nourishment and continuing to edify and build our own resilience.
Greg Wright:
Thank you. Well, we've had a conversation with Dr. Kristen Lee, author of Worth the Risk. Thank you for being our guest, and I'm sure we're going to have you on in another few years. It's been about four years, so let's not make it that long the next time.
Kristen Lee:
Indeed, likewise, it's been such a pleasure conversing. All my very best. Thank you, Greg.
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