Announcer:
This is NASW Social Work Talks. Thanks for joining us. This is the first of a two-part series on how teens are using technology, specifically gaming and social media. In this episode, our host Greg Wright speaks with Mike Langlois, author of "Reset: Video Games & Psychotherapy." Mike is a gamer-affirmative therapist whose work focuses on gaming, social media, and the impact of social networks on relationships. Now here's Greg Wright with Mike Langlois.
Greg Wright:
Michael, welcome to the Social Work Talks podcast. We're very happy to have you.
Mike Langlois:
Thank you so much for having me today.
Greg Wright:
You have done a lot of work around how video games influence young people. As a social worker, how did you get involved in this area?
Mike Langlois:
I got involved in it first off through my personal life. When I was younger, I definitely enjoyed playing video games and I was always an early adopter. One of the things that I've found when I talked to peers in our field is that a lot of the folks that as adults are working with adults or kids and technology, often were early adopters. I had some video game stations like the Atari 2600, and played a lot of Nintendo. Professionally how I got interested in using video games and how video games influence young people, really came from my early work as a special education social worker. My second job out of graduate school in the late 90s was working in an inner city public school district for the special education department, which is what it was called at the time. I was really engaged with kids that were having a hard time regulating their behavior and/or learning, because the two often go hand in hand. One of the things that often happened in the special education department was we had some younger folks doing the teaching and the educating, and we were really open to innovation. Part of that was, because some of these folks had adaptive technology and so technology was being used anyway. But really the spirit of working in that sort of paradigm was whatever worked to get a kid interested in learning, whatever worked to get a kid focused and learning ready. Whatever worked to reinforce them to continue to do certain educational tasks, we did it. As people have probably noticed if they have their own kids with smart phones today, that technology has a child's undivided attention. Whether you like it or not, that technology really engages them. We learned really early on that if playing video games was going to help a kid feel motivated, if talking or thinking about things from a gamified point of view was going to motivate them, we went with it. We had some really supportive administrators that, a lot of these kids this was the last place for them before they went to an out-of-district placement or substantially separate placement. So we got to do a lot of things we wanted to in a very creative way.
Greg Wright:
Are more social workers now becoming more aware of this, and also incorporating it into their practices? Or is it a thing now that a lot of folks are a little bit skeptical of, Michael?
Mike Langlois:
There's a great piece that Adam Gopnick in the New Yorker wrote about technology, and he classified people into three groups. The two groups that I'll point out are, there are the better-nevers, and the never-betters. The better-nevers are folks that take any new technology and say, "Oh my god, better we never had this technology. Everything's making it harder now that we've got this. It's making people more distracted, it's making them dumber. It's better that we never had technology." I'd say some of the colleagues that I work with fall into that better-never camp. But as younger folks are coming up more and more in the profession, we're seeing a lot more of the never-betters. The never-betters are folks that say, "You know, it was never better since we've had this technology. It helps kids get organized, it helps people stay in touch over distance, it's engaging and people are able to use video games to improve learning and improve all sorts of things. It's never better." I've actually seen that there's an awareness in both camps on the influence of gaming. Some folks are inclined to incorporate it into their practice. More folks, unfortunately, tend to be inclined to pathologize it. That's what I do when I ... part of what my role is as a workshop leader and an educator around the country. I try to help people see that there's probably more power for good in gaming than there is for bad.
Greg Wright:
How does a video game help a young person become better organized and also more engaged with other people? How does that happen?
Mike Langlois:
Let's take the first part, better organized. There are forms of games, video games such as Plants Vs. Zombies. That's one of the most popular ones that are called tower defense games. The point of these games is you have to plan where to put things, and what the timing is to place them in place to defend your tower. One of the things that this game is really good for is for executive function in that it helps kids learn how to figure out what are the relative times it would take to build one thing versus another, and what order they should put them in in order to succeed in the game. That's just one example of how a game of the kind that are called tower defense games can really help people in terms of strategizing or planning. Another one is any of the Sims, Civilization series, those are games where in order to build a civilization well, you have to have a steady balance of people doing certain tasks and you have to keep your attention on several different things and figure out what's most important. Those are examples of how video games can really help with executive functioning tasks. In terms of keeping them engaged, I think a lot of us that grew up in the 60s, 70s, 80s, are used to thinking of video games from the point of view of Pong, where it was a game that had fairly poor graphics. You and maybe one other person sitting next to you were facing a television set or a monitor playing the game. That's actually not at all what video games are like now. Now games are highly networked. Kids are playing online, they're using headsets and chat, they're talking with classmates after school, they're engaging in a very social way a lot of times with video games. They're members of leagues, of guilds, they engage in team-based and problem-based, problem solving-based games. The idea that games are very isolationist and cut people off is actually not true in my experience.
Greg Wright:
Now there are parents out there that think their children are on these games much, much too long. Are you seeing that worry, and is that a reality going on out there, Michael?
Mike Langlois:
I think I'm seeing the worry. I tend to think that any time parents feel like something is taking their child's time and attention more than they wish it will, there will be a conflict. I think that, for better or for worse, most of us adults have this irrational wish on some level that everything we said and did was the most important thing in a kid's life. that we didn't want to compete with a smart phone or a computer. But the reality is that we're not necessarily the most interesting or engaging part of a kid's life. I do think parents worry about this and part of it I think is because they don't necessarily see how the way they're transitioning kids from playing a game to another activity, it can in fact be a real problem. One of the things I do almost on a daily basis is have conversations with parents who are worried because when it's time for dinner, they call the kid to come to dinner, and the kid won't come right away, or they have to call three times, or maybe the kid won't come at all. They get very frustrated if they try to put limits like one hour, or 30 minutes, do an egg timer, all these things that have a very strict quantifiable sense of time. Meanwhile, these parents are also parents that have probably really instilled in their kids the desire that it's good character-building to be loyal, to be dependable, to honor your commitments, to show up when you say you're going to show up. So from a kid's point of view, if they start playing say for example, Fortnite, and they're a member of a team and then the parent comes in and says, "Okay, it's dinner in five minutes." The parent thinks they're being reasonable. The kiddo is experiencing that suddenly, they're not supposed to be loyal and dependable and a team player and cooperate, but they're supposed to leave everybody in the middle of a match. A lot of times, when I help parents see the kind of language gap here, they're able to switch how they transition kids. For a quick example is, when you're having dinner at your home, a family dinner, dinner may happen roughly around 6:00. But if dinner's not quite ready yet at 6:00, you don't have everyone start eating raw food, because 6:00 is when we start dinner. And if the conversation's going really well and people are enjoying each other's company in the meal, you don't start taking their plates away and say, "Okay, you got to leave, it's 6:45. Dinner is over." Those sorts of activities are based on a time that's more qualitative than nature. So the trick is to have parents help their kids identify qualitative equivalents, so that do they want to build one more structure? Are they playing one more round? Figuring out what is an approximation of 20 minutes in terms of whatever game they're playing. That really helps kids transition a lot better, and it reduces the risk of you interrupting them from a preferred task, and maybe even pulling them away from a group of people that have been engaged in a cooperative venture.
Greg Wright:
There is some bullying and also trolling going on in the social media world. I was wondering if you've also run across that in your practice.
Mike Langlois:
I have, and what's really interesting is if people want to take a look at the Pew Internet Research Foundation, they have done some amazing work on bullying and citizenship online. There definitely is, because of the anonymity, some prevalence where people will be hearing things that they are not necessarily ... that aren't kind or aren't friendly, that are abusive. But what the Pew Internet Research Foundation found was that actually, people are more likely to speak up, that people reported ... I'm trying to remember the right figure but it was probably something like 70-80% of the time that they heard hate speech in a game or online or on social media, somebody jumped in and said, "Hey, that's not okay." I have to tell you, I wish that 70 or 80% of the time, trans kids or gay kids or kids with some sort of bullying at school were the recipients of hate speech, that 70% or 80% of the time, people jumped in and said, "That's not okay," in non-digital life. I actually think that the amount of bullying and the amount of pro-social response to bullying is a lot more what we'd want to see online than in physical school-based reality. That doesn't mean that there's not a need for digital citizenship and education on digital literacy and social literacy online. But the challenge is, nobody's teaching this. There are some schools that are beginning to engage in digital literacy as a curriculum, but it's one of those things that it needs to be taught, just like social-emotional learning needs to be taught. The question is not is there some concern here? We know there is. But the question is, "Okay, who's going to take on the job?" And that's actually one of the places I think school social workers or even social workers in private practice can really do something, because we ask parents already do so much, and schools are already doing so much, that perhaps one of the things we can help with is taking on more of a responsibility for providing psycho-education on how to be a citizen, a good citizen in a digital world.
Greg Wright:
If you are a social worker who is working with younger people, are you recommending that all of them be literate in the world of online gaming?
Mike Langlois:
The world of online gaming, or online, whether it be preparing kids from a young age to live in a networked world, which is where the future of work is going to be, which is the future of where staying informed and learning about things. In terms of if you even think about politics and you think about how Countable and apps like that kind of really engage people civically much more than ever before, because it's on a digital level. We need to start helping kids plan on how to make choices and how to make good choices. Everybody has their own value system around what a good choice is, and we have some general things we all agree on. I'm certainly not suggesting that parents can't have their own set of values around things. But I do think that the idea of not having kids engaging in online or social media or video game communities doesn't help. It doesn't give them practice, and it doesn't give you the opportunity to, in some ways, chaperone. At an early age, I would say is the time to be hanging out with your kiddo while they're playing, so that you can sort of get them in the habit of knowing that you're in the room, you're interested in what they're doing, and that maybe you are going to hear some of the conversation. I don't know about you, but when I was growing up, if my parents were in the same room, my language was a lot more pristine than when I was just with friends. I think that sometimes what we want to be doing is having parents engaging with kids early and getting them in the habit of, "Of course you can use technology, and of course I'm going to be helping you learn how to do that." That's really, quite honestly, where parents stumble. It's changing a little now, but parents are having to help their kids manage technology that just didn't exist, you know? When I was growing up, you didn't have a computer and a digital camera that was with you 24/7. You couldn't talk on the phone any time you wanted, anywhere. Here's a brave new world that parents weren't prepared for.
Greg Wright:
NASW has an updated code of ethics that has added in technology issues. I was wondering if you read that, and what do you think about this new updated code?
Mike Langlois:
It's better than the last one, but not good enough. Honestly, I was very interested and advocated to be one of the folks that was at the table when we had this discussion about these technologies. Partly because I'm not just a clinical social worker, but I'm somebody that has helped co-found a startup for a social network platforming system. I'm somebody that has had the opportunity to practice tele-health in many states and done video game play therapy. So I felt like I had a lot to offer in terms of both the skills, as well as some of the technology interest. But I wasn't invited to be part of that. I've been critical about it, but I've tried to have a light touch with that because I'm hoping that the next time you all do it, I get to be at the table.
I think that social workers are... really have their patients' best interest at heart, and sometimes what they think is in their patients' best interest may not actually be what is in the best interest of the patient. I think that that's something that we see in terms of the code of ethics. But I guess my biggest concern about the code of ethics is it doesn't emphasize the positives and the exciting new ways we can engage with technology as much as it focuses on the kind of intimidating fear parts of it, that somehow if you're not careful you're going to be doing something unethical or going to get sued. Any time we talk with professionals about not being ethical or being sued, I think we fearmonger. If you think about the code of ethics, there is not at all this level of detail that I've ever seen about sexual contact with patients. We know that's unethical. But we're not talking about that in detail. We're not having dozens of workshops, we're not constantly writing articles about that, to the level that some of the stuff about technology and ethics gets talked about. In fact, the first I think is a much more prevalent and concerning problem that is pretty clear.
Greg Wright:
You have actually said that gaming does have benefits. But is there also a possibility that it can become an addiction even?
Mike Langlois:
That's where it's tricky, because I can't say that gaming has such a power and impact, without also addressing that it can actually be something that could be a problem. I think the term 'addiction' is a problematic term for video games for a couple reasons. One is, because I think that it conflates some of the other addictions, and conflates a severity or an acuity that I don't think is necessarily there. I think that the opioid addiction that is impacting rural America, for example, is much more troublesome and much more of a public health crisis than kids that aren't doing as well at school or are staying up too late because they're playing too much Fortnite. I think that when we start calling gaming an addiction, we really flatten the meaning out. I think it's a term that should be really kept for things that have severe medical problems, that are severely disruptive in terms of relationships and legal work, cause severe monetary problems. I tend to be someone that doesn't like the use of that word in terms of gaming. That said, that doesn't mean I don't think video game playing can become problematic for kids or adults. But my experience is usually that people are trying to cope with some problems the best they can with whatever their behaviors are, even if we consider them maladaptive behaviors. My focus is usually trying to understand what is it about playing games that kids or adults are finding compelling? However, if you really wanted to focus on the question, is gaming a problem or not? I guess I would go back to my kind of study and understanding of the concept of play. There was a thinker in the 20th century named Johan [Hoysinka], who talked about the nature of play. He talked about how play is freedom. If you find somebody that is playing a video game or doing anything to a great deal, the question I'd have for them is, when you're playing, do you have a sense of freedom? Do you feel like you're free to stop? Do you feel like you have a choice? If somebody is feeling like they don't have freedom, if they are feeling like they don't have a choice, then in fact the playfulness has gone out of video games. That is often a time when maybe we do want to talk about how to alter that behavior so that it's not harmful.
Greg Wright:
I was wondering if you've ever run across cases like that, Michael.
Mike Langlois:
People usually don't come to me to stop playing video games or reducing time, because my approach is really to discourage that sort of work. I'm much more focused on understanding why a video game is being used by the kiddo. In fact, one of the things that video games really do is provide some resilience. There was some research that showed that in the game development field, that when you're playing a video game, 80% of the time, 8-0 percent of the time you play a video game, you are failing at it. Yet people try it, they fail, they try and they fail again. If kids were able to go to school and have an 80% resiliency rate around academic tasks, we would be loving that. There's got to be something that we can do to tap into the power of video games and the resiliency that they're encouraging in kids. I would rather focus on that than how many hours someone is playing and how to get it from four hours to three hours, or three hours to two hours. That's not where I think we need to be focusing.
Greg Wright:
We've also learned that you've been working at the University of Buffalo on the issue of race and emerging technology. Could you tell us a little bit more about your work in that area, Michael?
Mike Langlois:
Oh, I'd love to. A big shout out to the University of Buffalo in that they have allowed me, over the past few years, to do online classes and online projects with them that are just firsts in the nation. I was able to do a play therapy intensive online class using Minecraft. They've always been really supportive, and so they were supportive of my first foray into being a producer of a series. Social workers can do so many things and that includes being series producers. They were trying to get, at the University of Buffalo, their faculty in the social work school and the staff to become more appreciative of how technology really is something that goes hand in hand with social work. I said, "Okay, let's do a yearly series and let's have the first year be on race and emerging technologies. We got to do a few different projects. We got to do a round table on black Twitter, where we talked about the social phenomenon of black Twitter and the black community, and what it might mean to people both in and out of that community. I got to do a round table with some academics and clinicians, and game designers, all of whom were people of color with the exception of myself and one other participant, and talk about race and racism in the gaming industry as well as what the images we're sending out there from video game production might mean to people that were either indigenous people or African-American or Latino. We got to talk about coding a little bit. We got to do a series that had three different parts. One part was my old college friend and director, Andre Lee, who did The Prep School Negro. He came and we had an airing of the film, and then we talked about how that experience might have been different in today's age of social media. It was so rewarding to produce something like that, and I would love more social workers to be able to take a look at it. I really do believe that social workers have their patients' best interest at heart, that they really want to continue to educate their practice in a way that is going to enhance their patients, and that if you can just help them see how technology can really help them do that, they will be willing to take the risk of learning it. Because I think a lot of times, people are daunted by emerging technologies, and left to their own devices might avoid them. But if you start to help them see how using a new thing like Twitter or learning about a video game could help them unlearn racism or help them reach their kids, or their adolescent patients? I'm pretty sure that they would jump at the chance.
Greg Wright:
Wow, that is a great way to end this. We would like to thank you for being our guest on Social Work Talks. Thanks so much.
Mike Langlois:
Thank you. You're welcome, thanks for having me, Greg.
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You have been listening to NASW Social Work Talks, a production of the National Association of Social Workers. We encourage you to visit NASW's website for more information about our efforts to enhance the professional growth and development of our members, to create and maintain professional standards, and to advance sound social policies. You can learn more at www.socialworkers.org. Don't forget to subscribe to NASW Social Work Talks wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for joining us. We look forward to seeing you next episode.