Greg Wright:
Welcome to Social Work Talks. I'm your host Greg Wright. Our guest today is NASW member Dr. Kristen Lee. She goes by Dr. Kris. Dr. Kris is an internationally recognized award-winning behavioral science professor, clinician, and author from Boston. She is the lead faculty for behavioral science at Northeastern University. Dr. Kris operates a clinical and consulting practice devoted to preventing and treating burnout. She's the author of the award-winning book "Reset: Make the Most of your Stress and Mentalligence: A New Psychology of Thinking." Dr. Kris is a regular contributor for Thrive Global, The Huffington Post, and Psychology Today, and has also appeared on NPR and CBS radio. Welcome to Social Work Talks, Dr. Kris.
Kristen Lee:
Thanks so much, Greg. It's great to be here.
Greg Wright:
Americans are really burned out. Why? What's actually leading to that?
Kristen Lee:
Right now, if we look worldwide, we're looking at high rates of burnout. But in the United States, we have some particular factors. Lots of us are working the equivalent of multiple jobs. And in this hyper competitive market, people are forced to do more with less. Obviously technology plays a huge role, too. It's this whole idea that we have to be on 24/7 and that we have to just never unplug and never give our bodies and brains or respite from the overload. Lots of folks are not taking even a lunch break, nevermind their vacation days. Then also in the United States, not everybody has paid vacation. There are a lot of factors that are contributing to this sense of overwhelm. Then, one thing when we think about burnout, we can think about sustainability. So a lot of times, the ways in which we're operating are not sustainable in the long run, and they end up eroding both our mental and physical health.
Greg Wright:
Ways that are not sustainable means what, actually? Like we're just going, and going, and going or what?
Kristen Lee:
Yeah. So we're expecting ourselves to perform like robots and machines, so just, again, with all of the demands of today. They're calling it infobesity. They're saying that we're taking in the equivalent of 174 newspapers a day into our brains. They're also calling it technostress, so this idea that we have to just every day perform to these heightened levels. I think this happens not only in our professional lives, but in our family and our relationships. For those of you who are parents out there, it's like there's more parenting styles than cereal choices now. There's all this information about how we're supposed to always be on. I think there's even pressure almost to be zen. It's like we have to do everything and then still kind of show up, and have a good hair day, and act like everything's fine. So, this really hyper competitive market bears down on us in all these kinds ways. But also, there's just this information that forces us to think that we have to be perfect in order to be okay in our society.
Greg Wright:
You've also said that there's a lot of folks out here walking around who look quite normal, calm, serene, but that you should always assume that other folks are under a lot of stress.
Kristen Lee:
Yes.
Greg Wright:
Why so? If you look good.
Kristen Lee:
Yeah. Well, that's the classic lie of like mental health or burnout. It's sort of it doesn't look like what we imagine it to be. I often say in my work to use universal precaution. So just like we would be careful handling blood in a medical field, when we think about burnout, we have to use universal precautions. One, they're calling it the occupational risk of today. They're saying that one in three of us have high levels of anxiety. Globally, they're saying that 350 million of us are experiencing depression. Then, I love the American Psychological Association also says that we often don't know how stressed we are until we actually physically show up with signs of it that we get physically sick. For example, the number one reason people go to the ER is for heart palpitations. They think they're having a heart attack, and then it's anxiety related. We know the oftentimes we're conditioned to sort of override those cues from our body and we don't recognize that we're in jeopardy until we've actually sort of come to that point of crisis.
Greg Wright:
Are women more prone to it, or is it more men, or is it everybody?
Kristen Lee:
One thing that I found interesting, there was a Yale study that talked about women and heart attacks. They talked about the idea that the very conditions that sort of created that burnout factor and that sort of escalated the cardiovascular risk was the same phenomena after. So as soon as they sort of had the heart attack, they then kind of went back right into the arena, right back into the heavy workloads, and the caregiving demands, et cetera. So when we look at the full mental health and burnout spectrum, we know that all people are at a particular risk when they're in high demand roles, particularly for those of us who are in caregiving professions, such as social work, or in education, or psychology, the medical fields. Even leaders of today face those particular risks because the work is so important and so demanding. All work is important, of course, but the needs of the people you're serving can often supersede your own needs. But, one thing we noticed is that women are more likely to be proactive, to talk about their mental health needs, to reach out and get therapy. What we know about men when we look at the data is it oftentimes they won't verbalize or vocalize what's happening or even maybe pay attention to it until they're at more of a point of a crisis. So when we look at things like suicide rates, for example, we know that men, if you look at the data, they will actually schedule their first appointment on the day of, like the day that they were actually planning to end their life. So, it's very important to look across gender, but, again, for all of us to think about prevention is less costly than repair. So, how do we take that lens of assuming within today's context where, again, they're calling it the age of anxiety and they're calling our work environments even modern hazards? So, how can we sort of be mindful and tuned into the fact that this could happen to anyone? It can happen across age, gender, culture. It can happen across all of our varied affiliations and social identity groups. It doesn't discriminate according to class or any of the factors. I think it's important for us to all sort of pay attention, recognize that we're human beings, not human doings, and that we really have to pay attention and not take on this type of risk factor.
Greg Wright:
I have a two-pronged question for you.
Kristen Lee:
Sure.
Greg Wright:
What are the signs that you are burnt out? So if most folks go on, and on, and on, what is a way that I can recognize, look, I might have an issue here?
Kristen Lee:
Yeah, great question. The burnout by definition has been characterized as a syndrome of emotional exhaustion, depersonalization, and even cynicism. What that means is that you sort of feel disengaged from your work, or your relationships, or your role, so just not really that same fervor or passion for those kinds of connections and things that you typically care about. It can also just mean that you're just in that state of depletion, so just feeling like there's no gas in the tank kind of thing, just that sense of just overwhelm and not being able to get out from underneath it. Then, the other thing that's I think hard in all of this whole realm of burnout is the cynicism part. It's that sense of like, "I don't feel like things can change. I don't feel like they're going to get better. I just have to kind of succumb to this." That can be all those processes together can lead us to depression and anxiety. again, those kinds of states can lead us to just feel really revved up, maybe even having panic-type symptoms, or just, again, really disengaged, or just sad, or discouraged, or even sometimes irritable and angry.
Greg Wright:
Is it almost like having a depression-type symptoms or is it different from having depression?
Kristen Lee:
They definitely have parallels. So certainly scholars have ... There's different debate about what it looks like. But ultimately, there's definitely similarities. But with burnout, it's more of a chronic pervasive condition. All that means is it goes on for a while. So say, again, you've been in a particular role. This can be a professional role. It could also be a caregiving role. So for our listeners out there who are in either or both situations, you know that over time, again, thinking of that sustainability piece, over time, if you're just so hyperfocused on everyone else's needs or what you have to do, but you're neglecting your own needs, over time, that can really leave you without that gas in the tank, so to speak. One way I think about it is good airplane protocol, like put your mask on first. I think that often seems very counterintuitive. Your first question about in America, I think it's so tricky here because we're an individualistic culture. We're bootstrappers. We think we have to put on our suck-it-up t-shirt and stiff upper lip kind of thing, and it's very hard for us to think about what it means to ask for help and to not feel shamed or stigmatized around that kind of thing.
Greg Wright:
You've also said that a good cure for all of this is relationships. How so?
Kristen Lee:
So when we look at the resilience literature and we think about resilience and our capacity to endure hardship or difficult context and to be able to bounce back or to stay on track, we know that relationships are among the most important things as protective factors, things that really bolster our total health and well-being. One thing that I find just shocking is this assertion that's come out lately. It said that loneliness is the new smoking as a health risk. So when I hear that, it just it ... It is this whole idea of-
Greg Wright:
I'm actually reading a Brené Brown book, another social worker who's also saying that, too, as well. We're like just isolated people now much, much more so.
Kristen Lee:
Yeah. I love Brené Brown, and I love the sociologists, Sherry Turkle, who wrote a book called "Alone Together." It's this weird paradox of we're always on and we're always connected, but yet we're lonely and disconnected. I think there's a lot of deeper reasons for that. I think across culture, across society, we have a lot of in and out group. We have a lot of disparities and isms because of race, and class, and gender, and sexual orientation, and age, and ability, and religion so we have a lot of these forces in society that I think are some of the deeper reasons in which we struggle, and we feel disconnected, and we're trying to make sense of our identities, and trying to show up. I think finding the ability to find diverse and to find deep connection with one another, to look for common ground.
Greg Wright:
Also, we are in a political time that's a stressful one. It's a divisive era. You're either on the far right or the far left. Looking at our news at night can be a stressful-like thing. So is it a good thing to just turn it off, isolate from all of that going on?
Kristen Lee:
Yeah, I think we need to kind of put on our critical thinking hats and realize that the news outlets are making a lot of money off this divisiveness and on this polarization. So when we look at this sociopolitical landscape where people are really locking down on ideology and really getting very just aggressive, it's important for us to sort of tune it out and to think better and think deeper. That's something that I've recently done a lot of writing and public work around because, again, what we're hearing just about our alleged differences and positions, it's all really triggering our brains, our amygdala, our fight-or-flight response in our brain, and the fear factor. It's really like sort of amplifying that in and out group and the dominant group what they say is acceptable or okay. Just all these things are really damaging. So, I definitely encourage people to tune out and to look for more nonpartisan, to look for things that are more substantive, and even to look at the data that... On so many levels, there's great examples of how people are working across so-called differences, and there's a lot of good that's happening that's not being reported.
Greg Wright:
So, what are some simple self-care things that anyone without a big, big budget can actually do [inaudible]?
Kristen Lee:
A lot of the things, like to start, is giving yourself permission, which doesn't cost any money. It's this whole thing of a lot of times people think self-care is selfish, so they feel guilty about it, or they feel bad, or that there's too many other competing demands, so giving yourself permission to carve out even little chunks of time. At Harvard, they're calling this break rituals, which is just a way of saying just like you brush your teeth every day or you have these certain routines. Add them in. So even if it's just you actually sit with your cup of coffee, which you're doing anyway, but you actually taste it. This is kind of that whole mindfulness movement of actually being present in the moment and enjoying something that's before you. Yeah, bubble baths are great, but some other things that we know, like the science really supports, is walking. So even just like a 20-minute chunk of time where you're walking. At that time, your body, both sides of your body moving, and your brain is also both sides of your brain is also moving, so that actually helps you process problems, and analyze, and solve things in new ways. Breathing. How many times when we're stressed out do we forget to breathe, right?
Greg Wright:
We hold...
Kristen Lee:
I know, right? We all do it. We hold our breath. We clench our fists, we clench our teeth maybe, but we're not even actually getting the proper oxygen, so just taking the time to do the deep breathing in a day. The other thing is humor, looking at the funny side of life and just being able to joke around and find people that you can sort of be fun and funny with. Other things, they're calling it lifestyle medicine. All that means is attention to sleep and sleep hygiene, making sure we're getting enough sleep, nutrition, hydration, exercise and movement, fresh air, and people time.
Greg Wright:
Social work is a very stressful career. Social workers are dealing with folks in a lot of traumatic places, et cetera. What is it that a social worker can do for self-care that's a bit beyond what average people do?
Kristen Lee:
It's a great question. To me, and this might seem centric, social workers are sacred people. It's sacred work. Just like our other disciplines, like teachers and psychologists, and for all of us in these roles where we're caregiving, there's a particular risk. When we look at the data, there's a particular risk. I think, again, giving ourselves permission. When we think about how willing we are to help everyone else and sometimes how reluctant we are to help ourselves, I think sometimes we think, "Well, we already have the information," or, "I shouldn't feel this way," and we're... So, I think changing the expectation and just recognizing if this is a particular risk for our profession, it begs our deepest attention to how we can engage in self-care. So, couple things. One is setting boundaries. It's so easy for us to take our work home with us. Or, again, as you mentioned, this polarized, this whole social political landscape. There's so much work to be done, and it's easy just to sort of in all of our respective roles just to be on 24/7. The other thing I'm finding a lot -- and I talk a lot about this with my colleagues who work in sort of the clinical realm -- is that not only are you serving people in your professional life, your clients, your patients, your constituents, but also oftentimes family members know about your particular expertise and they come to you as well. So you're sort of getting it like there's sort of never that time when you're not on call, so to speak. I think, again, it really demonstrates the importance of maybe it's like you shut your phone off or you just have those chunks of time where you really allow yourself to engage in the types of self-care that are high-impact for you.
Greg Wright:
Let's talk a bit about your book, "Mentalligence"?
Kristen Lee:
Mentalligence, yes.
Greg Wright:
Is that right?
Kristen Lee:
Yes.
Greg Wright:
How did that term come up, mentalligence?
Kristen Lee:
It's actually the fusions of the words mental and intelligence. So, again, in this work for the last 22 years, I worked in both macro and clinical work, outpatient, lots of community settings. Then 10 years ago, I stepped into higher education where I started to work with students from all around the world, and I kind of... In all that, I realized that those words, mental, often has like a negative connotation. So, think of mental disorders or mental health and sort of all the images, the stigma that sometimes comes up in. Similarly with the word intelligence, also, there's a lot of connotation to that, like the narrow boxes we try to frame intelligence around and sort of that whole in and out group thing. Mentalligence, the subtitle is "A New Psychology of Thinking." Learn what it takes to be more agile, mindful, and connected in today's world. So, think of those keywords, agile, right? A lot of times we can be very rigid when we're dealing with change as the only constant, so a lot of times we can sort of shut down. Mindful, again, there's a lot of mindless behavior that's going on at large. Then, connected. Again, we've talked about this whole notion of how we sometimes feel disconnected and alone. Mentalligence is actually based on a grounded theory study that I had the chance to do over a few years with my students from around the world. My main question was like... You know in social work, right? We love story. We get to really get on a deep level around our stories, and the complexity of our stories, and sort of the amazing spirit of being a human and being able to be resilient. So, I got really curious as I saw the stories of my students unfolding. I was like, "Wow. They're resilient." And what was behind it? What was behind their capacity to sort of recover from hardship and to keep going and to keep persevering? So, we started to really talk about what does it mean in today's world to show up not airbrushed. How can we be our authentic selves in this world where it's always telling us to fake it till we make it? Out of this whole study came these four lenses to help us avoid the blind spots and the behavior traps of today, again, that we have to get the likes on our feed, or how many LinkedIn followers we have, or all those... the money in the bank or our image, that those are the things that actually make us happy. When we look at the science of resilience and human flourishing, those metrics of success are actually not the things that actually make us resilient or happy. What we know is that it's the presence with each other, our ability to show up real and raw, and to be our true selves, and a life that's characterized by impact, not performance, not what people think, but bringing impact to people's lives and change agency, that those are the things that help us get to a better place together. I'm so excited. It's allowed for my writing and the work that I have the chance to do. It allows for deeper conversation around what does it mean to be a conscious global citizen, what does it mean to get out of our insularity, our own little bubbles, our own circles, and to think more broad, and to think about how do we unlearn our social instincts or our primitive instincts, our social conditioning, and think more about how we can not focus on me so much, but focused on the we.
Greg Wright:
Could you explain decision fatigue for the listeners?
Kristen Lee:
Decision fatigue is something that I think all of us are experiencing. There's so many choices. When we think about our past generations, and they didn't have the kinds of choices. On one hand, you could say, "Wow. We're so fortunate to have all of these choices." But when we look at the research, we know that this can lead to something called choice paralysis or, again, just lead to this like, "So what do I choose?" One of my favorite examples of this is they did a study in an upscale California supermarket where they put out 24 jars of jam. What they found is when they put out all the jars of jam, people just couldn't make a choice and they weren't buying. Then they reduced it to six jars and, boom, that was a secret formula. They were getting big time sales. I think that's a great illustration of sort of the choice paralysis and the exhaustion we feel because we think we can do everything and that we have to do everything, and it can be very hard to select. One of the ways that the research helps us with this or to think about this is that when we align our values with our behaviors, that can help us make decisions that actually help us to flourish and help us to bring impact. So again, to unpack that just a little bit more, it's like figuring out what are your core values. What are the things that are most important to you? Then, are the types of things you're doing at work or in your relationships actually lining up with that? That's something I really encourage my students that I have the chance to work with. Again, they're like, "I could do everything. I could do this path and this career. I could live in this country. I could..." We have more choices to where we live, how we love where we go, how we communicate than any generation past. Again, that's fantastic, but it can lead us to sort of have our heads spinning or just feel like it's never enough. I encourage them to think about what are your values, what are your core values, and then how do you set up your life accordingly. How do you design your life in a way that really helps you to live those out?
Greg Wright:
Smartphones, they are everywhere. 70 or so percent of our citizens are on Facebook every day.
Kristen Lee:
Yes.
Greg Wright:
So, is that a stressor? Should we just turn them off a few hours a day or not? What's your advice with that?
Kristen Lee:
Yeah. I mean, even beyond advice, if we look at our brain and the brain science, being on the screen all the time like that is really eroding our sense of creativity, our sense of mindfulness, and productivity. So every time we pop on the screen, we're losing time that we could be devoting. Today we're talking a lot about self-care and protective factors against this environment, but we're really sabotaging our brains and our capacity to sort of get into psychological flow, so to really immerse ourselves in the activities that really light us up. For me, I love to write. I get in the zone. That's my thing. I love to write or I love to go for a walk. That's where I can really be present, and really in the moment, and enjoy things. When we're constantly on the screen, again, we're really ... I always think it's like we're bruising our brain up or we're just sucking the gas right out of ourselves. I think it's really important that we ... There's things even now on the phones, like Checky or different apps, where you can measure how many times you're checking the phone. But certainly, the more we can be away from our screen, the better.
Greg Wright:
Dr. Kris, thank you so much. This was a wonderful conversation.
Kristen Lee:
Thank you so much. I enjoyed being with you. Thank you.
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