Episode 114 Transcript: Marijuana Reform Policies and Their Impact Black and Brown Communities
Melvin Wilson
Hello everyone. My name is Mel Wilson. I'm a senior policy advisor
for the National Association of Social Workers, and I'm your moderator
for today's podcast. Today we'll be discussing how federal marijuana
reform can impact the black and brown communities. We're talking with
three marijuana justice experts and advocates, and they will share the
latest changes in federal marijuana policy with us. We'll try to cover
several questions in general. We're going to be able to talk about what
to expect on the federal M marijuana reform front this year. What should
the President and Congress do to end some of the most egregious harms
of marijuana criminalization as social workers? How can we help pass
marijuana laws that are rooted in equity and racial justice? Today's
guess will answer some of those questions and give a status report on
where things are. Having said that, I want to introduce or let the
guests introduce themselves after they do introduce themselves. I'm
going to start off my questioning probably with Marvin, and so I'll
start with Marissa. Could you briefly introduce yourself and we'll end
that, Marvin?
Marissa Perez Medina
Sure. My name is Marissa Perez Medina. I'm the director of Federal
Affairs for the Drug Policy Alliance. The Drug Policy Alliance is a
national nonprofit that works to end the war on drugs and the harms of
the drug war. I also convened the Marijuana Justice Coalition, which is a
national coalition made up of groups from all across the US that
believe that marijuana must be decriminalized and that it should be
legalized in a fair and equitable way. NASW is a proud partner of that
coalition. Thanks for having me today.
Chelsea Hicks Wise
Hi everyone. My name is Chelsea Hicks Wise, I'm with Marijuana
Justice and we work to repeal the prohibition to repair families,
communities, and individuals impacted by prohibition, as well as to
bring drug war reparations. We mainly work here in Virginia and support
to be conveners of southern decrim right here, and we're really excited
to also be working at the federal level with United for Marijuana
Decriminalization and Coalition with other partners to work for this
descheduling effort. Thanks for having us.
Marvin Tover
Hey, everybody. My name is Marvin Tover. I'm a licensed clinical
social worker here in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Not a marijuana
justice expert, but definitely an advocate working with many, many
different individuals who have been impacted by these types of laws. I
work at a private called the Radical Therapy Center, where we prioritize
folks with marginalized identities, so people of color, queer folks,
immigrants, anyone with a marginalized identity. We prioritize folks
like us, excuse me. We also intentionally speak out around issues of
social justice, speak out around issues of white supremacy, patriarchy,
and capitalism, and how it's incredibly harmful to many of us today. So
thank y'all for having me for a part of this conversation. I'm excited
about it.
Melvin Wilson
You're welcome. And that's one of the reasons Mark, I wanted to start
with you because I remember when the four of us got together in some
free meetings, the passion you had and effect what got you into these
spaces, and it seemed something that was really compelling to us as we
heard you and certainly probably in Philadelphia, that you guys are
doing a great job. So could you just give us where you are, what brought
you here, and why this passion and talk in terms of the impact that
populations?
Marvin Tover
Sure. Again, my name is Marvin. If you are following me and listening
to this podcast, I'm just as surprised as you are that I'm on this
podcast, but despite my critiques of the NASW, this is a huge issue.
This is a social justice issue. This is disproportionately affecting
black and brown folks, folks in low income communities of color, and we
have clear evidence of that per our code of ethics. It's something that
we need to advocate for as social workers and reading directly from our
code of ethics, I believe it's 0.6, 0.01, social workers should promote
the general welfare of society from global, I'm sorry, from local to
global levels. I'm going to say global levels one more time. And the
people, sorry, and the development of people, their communities and
their environments. So again, this is in our code of ethics. If folks
just became social workers to be therapists, you're only doing part of
that job.
We are trying to create a better world
for everyone as social workers in direct practice laws like these make
things just so much more difficult as a social worker. And we witnessed
this because a lot of us are going to court with our clients. We're
going to potentially try to apply for SNAP benefits maybe and then get
denied because of a potential record, right? So I really want to call
for social workers to challenge their own biases around this and also
recognize the harm that's being done. And once again, it's mainly to
black and brown folks. And so again, thinking about a social justice
lens, again, this is something that social workers need to take
seriously and really advocate
Melvin Wilson
For. That's great. That's something that's really important to say.
I'm so glad that you did say that to the social work community and
something that we need to really respond to. So we're going to do a
series of questions, and I'll start off with Marissa. Marissa as the
head of DPA, the federal department for DPA. Can you catch us up on
where the Biden Harris administration is in terms of decriminalization
and descheduling, and just to give us a general of that?
Marissa Perez Medina
Absolutely. So this is a really critical year for federal marijuana
reform, and I say that because there's a potential big opportunity
coming down the pipe. In October of 2020 22, president Biden made a big
historic announcement around marijuana. That announcement included
federal pardons for folks with federal marijuana convictions. He also
encouraged states to pardon people at the state level for marijuana
offenses. In addition to that, he requested that HHS Health and Human
Services and the Drug Enforcement Administration, the DA review
marijuana status as a Schedule one drug. Marijuana has been listed as a
Schedule one drug under the Controlled Substances Act since 1971 when
the CSA was passed into law. So this is historic in the sense that this
is the first time actually a president has called for marijuana status
on the CSA to be reviewed. So it's an exciting potential opportunity. We
are watching closely to see what happens.
We expect that the DEA will come out with a rule soon. HHS already
completed their portion of the review, and they recommended that
marijuana be moved to Schedule three. So now it's DE's turn to do their
own analysis. I will say, while we're excited about the potential for
reform, we're also watching this closely because if the DEA agrees with
HHS and moves marijuana to Schedule three, that is concerning for our
communities and the constituencies and the people that we fight for
because unfortunately, unless marijuana is removed completely from the
Controlled Substance Act, unless it's descheduled, the harms associated
with marijuana prohibition will continue. Because keeping marijuana on
the Controlled Substances Act, whether it be 1, 2, 3, 4, or five, means
that we will still see criminal penalties. We will still see the
collateral consequences associated with those penalties and means that
prohibition remains in place and we don't want that.
So we've been pushing to advocate already with the Biden
administration to support Descheduling to come out in support of it. We
of course, want the Drug Enforcement Administration to do the same
thing. There will be potentially a public comment opportunity that we're
hoping that people will engage in when that rule comes down. And again,
we're not quite sure when it'll happen. We are sort of predicting it'll
happen this year, but it's not clear. But what is clear is that there
are things that President Biden can do now to end some of the most
egregious harms associated with marijuana criminalization, and that's
what we're pushing for. So for example, I said he announced federal
pardons and ask states to do the same. That's great. But the reality is
that those federal pardons only impacted a limited number of people, and
that's because the pardons were only for simple possession and use.
And actually most cases at the federal level are more complicated
than that. So we really want to push 'em to do expanded relief for
individuals that way people can actually leave prison because
unfortunately, nobody was released from prison under the original Pardon
announcement. And also we should remember that a pardon is not an
expungement. So while it's a formal forgiveness from the administration
and that is valuable in the person's life, it actually doesn't remove
the legal obstacles like an expungement would so that a person can move
on with their life and do things like secure stable housing, secure
federal benefits to feed their families, get a job or a license that can
improve their life and well-being. So we're going to continue to push
this administration regardless what the DEA says, but this isn't a
pretty incredible opportunity nonetheless, that we're looking at
probably this year.
Melvin Wilson
Very quickly, you used the word in expungement and the audience, some
people audience may not clearly understand what this could Just
briefly, could you define that a little bit?
Marissa Perez Medina
Yeah, absolutely. So as I said, what we heard from President Biden
was a pardon in. So both the president and individual state governors
have the opportunity to pardon criminal offenses. A pardon is a formal
forgiveness, and sometimes it can remove some obstacles. A person may
have to move on from their life, but it actually doesn't clear a
criminal record. Only an expungement can do that. So once a record is
expunged, that means it's wiped away from a person's record and they can
go on and live their life. They don't have to report that they were
arrested for the specific offense. So an expungement is more far
reaching than a pardon.
Melvin Wilson
Offense. We're going to get back to those areas. I thought it'd be a
good idea that bring the big issue of race and disparities. And Chelsea,
I know you're really an expert in that area. Could you just really talk
to the audience about the deep and harmful historical context of
disparities in sentencing and the rest and the whole nine yards for the
black and brown community?
Chelsea Hicks Wise
Sure. Thank you again, Mel. And something I failed to leave out of my
intro is that I am also a social worker. So I was a practicing clinical
social worker for over a decade here in central Virginia, serving
mostly individuals and families that receive Medicaid. I saw this
problem firsthand with many of the folks that we were serving,
particularly because the majority of people and families on my list were
black people. Historically, marijuana prohibition has come specifically
to target certain communities. We have on record, particularly from
president, former president Nixon's aid to say that this was something
that was criminalized very specifically to target people of a certain
race, black Latinos and folks that were anti-war. And I appreciate
Marvin's nod to the global issue because this was always about limiting
people from having global voices. And if we criminalize them, then that
removes them from many conversations as valid reporters or valid folks
to really tell their story.
So we know even further back prior to 1970s, marijuana and other
substances have always been targeted for people of color to be removed
from certain areas. We talk about sentencing. A lot of folks, including
myself, we're really drawn to this movement of prohibition after
Michelle Alexander's book on the New Jim Crow. And we look at how the
era of mass incarceration, which I like to tell people, is just a time
period where we have continued to put people in incarceration. At
marijuana justice, we believe that anybody incarcerated is too many. So
mass or smaller numbers are actually too much. And so when we look at
the time periods where this country has continued to incarcerate people
at the highest numbers in the world, we see who those folks are and they
are mostly black men. We hear numbers like the United States is
incarcerating more black people than South African apartheid times.
So we have really created historical landmarks about how to continue
to criminalize black people specifically even after we had this thing
called the 13th Amendment that really had that exception. So marijuana
prohibition has fed right into that 13th amendment exception of we can
still enslave people if they are prisoners. And that's why we have come
together to say, we have to end this prohibition. We have to stop
marijuana arrests. We have to continue to stop these types of roadside
criminalization here in Virginia. And many states are really trying to
take police power away from folks being able to stop search and seize
because of the smell. Because many law enforcements were just using the
smell, whether they smelled it or not, in order to have that interaction
that we know if black people are just interacting with law enforcement,
that gives us an exponential chance to now have charges on us.
And so what we're doing by really removing the prohibition, we're
also removing the proximity of law enforcement to our communities and
our families. That way we know that we can actually keep ourselves safer
without this types of targeted criminalization. Just to speak to my
fellow social workers for just one second about how important this is as
a social worker, I was able to see that whether we were trying to
access housing, snap benefits, special ed with school transportation, I
mean just medical benefits, medical service coordination, how we show up
and when they see us makes a difference already based on the color of
our skin. If we now have to come in and talk about someone with a past
marijuana charge, or even if we disclose that they are a marijuana
consumer, even in a legal state like Virginia, that family is open to
discrimination.
And my last thought of why this is so important for everyone is
because here in Virginia, we actually just got vetoed our parental
rights bill in Virginia. In Virginia, it is legal to possess and
consume, but right now, if you pass test positive for marijuana in
Virginia and you're in a hospital or a doctor's office, it's going to
automatically trigger a CPS call from those social workers. Those social
workers do not have an option to use their discretion if the child is
in danger, even because it's a legal substance. And so there are still,
and that actions are taking more and more in account on black families,
particularly in rural parts of the state. And so we see the historical
implications of prohibition, and we're still looking at the current,
even in legal states, which is why organizations like Marijuana Justice
passed social workers are stepping in and saying, we really need to do
something about this now at a federal level that will reach people all
the way down in rural parts of our country that need this benefit as
well.
Melvin Wilson
Great. And little clarification, CPS, child Protective Services as
that you're referring to, actually an important topic. So I'll give
others Arvin a chance if you wanted to add anything to this, to what
Chelsea said or, and also Mari, if you want to add anything, feel free
at this point. You don't have to. I'm just to throw it out there because
it is an important topic.
Chelsea Hicks Wise
Topic. I did want to just add one other thing from what Maritza was
saying about expungements. A lot of folks might also recognize the term
sealed records, which is a lower form of having your record cleared,
that it's cleared for housing landlords jobs, but the police system and
the judicial system, judges and prosecutors can still see it. So there
are other levels, even beyond expungement like Virginia, we do not have
expungement. There's no such thing. We only have sealed records. So no
matter what happens without this federal, pardon, prosecutors, judges,
and police will still be able to see these past records, and we know
what that means,
Melvin Wilson
Right? And those are the collateral consequences of being caught up
in that system. Transitioning back, Marissa to the process with
Descheduling, I know that there's a lot of discussion around
decriminalization and also legalization, and I'm not sure that everybody
really knows that distinction. And it's really critical folks to know
what this really is and the issue that what we're asking for is within
the federal system. So could you just speak to that? And I think I might
have a little follow up question to that.
Marissa Perez Medina
Yeah, I did think that Marvin wanted to add on to Chelsea's question, and I know, oh,
Melvin Wilson
I, I'm sorry. I apologize, Marvin.
Marissa Perez Medina
I agree. Mel, I think it's a really important discussion, but then I'll jump to your question if you'd
Melvin Wilson
Like. Okay, great. I missed, go ahead, Mar.
Marvin Tover
No, thank you. I was just going to add some numbers to it, and just
because I was looking, and in the United States, black folks are almost
four times more likely to be arrested for marijuana. I believe y'all can
definitely fact check me. I know y'all are experts. And also it was
shown that in the places where marijuana was decriminalized, that nearly
20%, I think for white folks, there were 20% less arrest, but only 8%
less arrest for black folks. And so that was also really eyeopening for
me to really see those numbers and see how much race actually does play a
role in this. So that's just a quick thing I wanted to add. Okay,
Melvin Wilson
Thank you. Okay, Marissa? Yeah, if you could just pick up on the, do I
need, should I repeat it or are you're okay with? Okay. The distinction
between decriminalization and legalization. Sometimes folks who aren't
like us totally in these spaces every day dealing with it, it may be a
little bit cloudy to them. And as it relates to federal offenses and
that this reschedule and decriminalization, could you talk to us a
little bit about that?
Marissa Perez Medina
Yeah, that's a really great question. A lot of people confuse the two
or conflate the two. When we talk about decriminalizing marijuana, we
literally mean removing the criminal penalties associated with a
marijuana arrest. When we talk about legalizing marijuana, we're usually
referring to some sort of regulatory framework that creates a legal
market for marijuana. So for example, there are many states across the
country that have reformed their marijuana laws. Some have
decriminalized, which is great. Some have even gone further and
legalized and created a legal market for marijuana. But there is a
distinction at the federal level and as it relates to the CSA and what's
happening right now with the scheduled review order, as long as
marijuana remains on the CSA, it will remain criminalized. So in order
to decriminalize it, we need to ensure that it comes off of the CSA and
that we address criminal penalties.
So a rescheduling of marijuana, in other words, moving marijuana to a
different number on the CSA will not decriminalize marijuana. Even if
we descheduled though, we still wouldn't legalize. In order to legalize,
we actually need legislation, which is the work of the Marijuana
Justice Coalition. Right? So the Marijuana Justice Coalition has been
working toward passing comprehensive Descheduling bills in Congress. In
the house, we have the Marijuana Opportunity Reinvestment and
Expungement Act. In the Senate, we have the Cannabis Administration and
Opportunity Act. Both bills would deschedule marijuana and address
criminal penalties. They both would resentence and expunge convictions,
so therefore we can call them decriminalization bills. They also create a
regulatory framework for marijuana. The CAOA, the cannabis bill in the
Senate, I would say, has a stronger regulatory framework. It's a true
legalization bill, but that's what makes them legalization bills is
because they address how marijuana is also going to be regulated once it
becomes legal.
Melvin Wilson
Thanks. That's very good information. Another, sometimes lack of
clarity that happens in the broader community, Chelsea, is when we talk
about the approach to marijuana, we talk about decriminalization, which
of course means that taking them out of the criminal justice system and
moving more towards a public health model. And again, a lot of people
may not be really informed what that really means on a day-to-day
process situation. Could you just give us some background on what that
is?
Chelsea Hicks Wise
Sure. When we start having this conversation, I start thinking about
the who, what, where, when, and why. And it really is a shift between
looking at a prohibition model, which is we have law enforcement, we
have judges, we have prosecutors, we have, we have juvenile justice
systems. Those are the folks that work in the criminal justice
prohibition institution right now, if we were to move to a public health
model, then we would start seeing doctors, psychiatrists, social
workers, hospitals, health experts, scientists come into the
conversation as well as if young people are caught with marijuana, they
would be sent to a social worker to be done an assessment to say, Hey,
are you misusing marijuana? You might be creating some addiction, or do
you maybe need more holistic services and you're using marijuana as a
way to cope, right? And so that completely removes a juvenile justice
system, a probation officer.
It removes the fines and fees that come with being arrested or having
a summons at any age. So we really are looking at making a total shift
of how consumers, or even folks that don't consume at all, that might
just be in proximity to the plant, how they are now informed and treated
and by whom. And folks say, well, what do you mean if you're not even a
consumer? Well, this would also take place in our other institutions
like hospitals and schools. Everyone kind of remembers the just Say No
campaign. This public health model would also create real comprehensive
education around substance uses around cannabis. I know DPA supports
Safety first, which is a curriculum for schools that I've also worked
with many Virginia schools just to introduce them to this type of newer
age curriculum that focuses on the health, that focuses on the safety.
And that really allows young people to have different pathways around
drug use. And so when we're talking about public health, we are also
just really taking into account our social determinants of health, and
most of us know a lot about that. Those are our genetics, and there's
plenty of evidence right now to show that a lot of the trauma and this
targeting that has happened over generations is showing up genetically
and black folks. So now what does that also look like in a prohibition
world? That behavior that we're looking at that is the behavior
environmental as well as your physical environments, your medical care.
So now looking at public health, do you have access to even talk about
marijuana use or to talk about different things, so making sure that
that public health is even an option or accessible, or are we just
automatically shoving people back into a criminal justice system?
Again, we're not looking at how drug policy and how new reform drug
options have to be accessible to all people. And of course, we're
looking at the other social factors of what's taboo. A lot of people, we
know that black people can take pain more, and so that might mean that
someone might not get a cannabis prescription for pain because we're
looked at as seeing as taking more. And there's just many more ways to
retrain talk about cultural competency in a many different professions
because drug policy has really touched just about every institution that
we have to interface with. And so it's now, how do we reframe, get
different messengers, different experts, to now look at how we are
treating people around cannabis That doesn't criminalize them.
Melvin Wilson
We haven't pre discussed it, but as you were talking, the whole issue
of diversion with the medical model, I think we need to pause. Did we
lose? Okay, I thought we lost you. Okay. Back again, the whole issue of
medical model and then getting into law enforcement and diversion, is
that an intersectional issue to be talked about and whether or not
diversion is effective or,
Chelsea Hicks Wise
So I really appreciate the question about diversion. I think that we
do need to figure out a way to move people from one institution to the
other. One thing I did not mention about public health is that sometimes
we can also use the same policing surveillance in public health that
we're already using in the criminal justice system. And guess who feels
that the most y'all, but the same population. And so I've been really
careful watching what diversion does to a lot of my families and
individuals as a past social worker, and it ends up still not allowing
them to be seen as full humans many times. Sometimes we're standing up
drug courts, and those have been things that just as a past social
worker, I've seen, again, trying to navigate that as real solutions have
just not been the answer. And so what I would say is that from the jump
right, from the moment somebody is caught with this, even if I hate to
even use that, that gives a policing sense that we need to make sure
that they are pointed to social workers and other folks from a health
perspective so that they don't have to necessarily get permission from
the court to then get services.
Right,
Melvin Wilson
Exactly. Thank you. The issue, Marissa, of the Biden administration
and what they can do as an administration around the whole issue of
descheduling, and I know the big piece of that is not Schedule three,
but decriminalization, and of course they've been out in public with
this in some very, very public announcements. Could you about, could you
tell me that from an advocacy standpoint and from professional
standpoint where DPA and the coalition is at with those positions that
the administration is taking right now?
Marissa Perez Medina
Yes, absolutely. The coalition and the Drug Policy Alliance are
pushing for the Biden administration to support descheduling. Ideally,
president Biden would come out in support of the bills that I talked
about earlier, either the More ACT or the Cannabis Administration Act.
He could say, Congress, send me a descheduling bill from my desk, send
me a bill that's centered on equity and marijuana reform. He hasn't done
that. It's been really disappointing because the truth of the matter is
that's what we need in order to end a lot of the harms that we're
talking about here. That said, there's so much that the president can do
now he can use executive authority to direct his agencies to review how
they deal with marijuana. For example, federal drug testing is still
totally legal and rampant across agencies. We also know that folks like
veterans have trouble accessing even medicinal marijuana because of
federal prohibition.
I talked about earlier criminal penalties and how we still have
people serving really draconian punishments at the federal level for
marijuana activity. He could call for expanded pardons and clemencies.
For those folks, he can ask the Department of Homeland Security to stop
prioritizing people for deportation, simply for marijuana activity. I
think that's one thing that we don't talk about enough, is the impact of
marijuana prohibition on non-citizens. And I'm not even talking about
folks without legal status who are so-called undocumented. I'm talking
about anyone who is not a citizen of the us. So you could be a visa
holder, a green card holder, some sort of worker with authority, as long
as you're not a citizen, federal prohibition impacts you because it
means that you're subject to automatic detention and deportation for any
marijuana activity, even if you're complying with state law. One way
that we see this play out is that we see medical marijuana patients, or
we see people who are participating as business owners in the adult
market face consequences, because even working in state legal businesses
or participating in state legal programs brings about immigrant
consequences, Biden could fix that by directing DHS to de-prioritize
those types of convictions and de-prioritize, detaining and deporting
people for marijuana activity.
Melvin Wilson
So immigration reform intersect. Again, all these intersections, what
these policies are really critical. Actually, this is a question that
both Chelsea and Marvin, if you want to get into, because really I'm
asking from your opinion what the administration can do or what it
should be doing. So Marvin, you want to jump in a little bit on that?
Marvin Tover
I mean, sure. I am from the generation that we were told always ask
why. And another statement that someone mentioned to me was to follow
the money. And then another statement more recently by Mark Lamont Hill
that I heard was that America doesn't have feelings, it has interests.
And again, I was researching a little bit, and I'm thinking about who is
gaining from black and brown bodies being in prisons. And so private
prisons are paid anywhere between a hundred and $150 per day per
incarcerated person. And so let's say a prison has 100 people in prison,
they're getting 10,000 to $15,000 a day, right? So that's 300,000 to
$450,000 a month. And if we multiply that by 12, again, we're looking at
multi-million multi-billion dollar industry, the prison industrial
complex. And so I don't know of any prison that only has a hundred
inmates in it. Maybe they exist, maybe they don't. I don't know. But
again, we have to really think about how capitalism and how greed plays
into this and how again, it's at the expense of black and brown folks.
And so again, we as social workers, we really have to take a look at
who's capitalizing from this, who's gaining and who's losing, right? And
so the folks that we usually work with, they're the folks that are
losing. And so it's making our jobs more difficult to then fix the harms
done by white supremacy and capitalism.
Marissa Perez Medina
I would like to follow up on that if that's okay. I'm glad that
Marvin brought up private prisons because you asked what can President
Biden do? So President Biden campaigned on shutting down private prisons
at the beginning of his administration. He put out some sort of
announcement around ending private prisons, and that is true for the
most part, but private prisons are still in existence. The federal
government still has private prison contracts for non-citizens. So
immigration prisons are still privatized, largely privatized. Another
way that we see this play out, going back to what I was saying earlier
with immigration, is even the Biden announcements on marijuana excluded
non-citizens, while the pardons did include green card holders. So if
you're a green card holder, perhaps you did get a pardon under the Biden
announcement. That's only one type of immigration status. There are
many types of immigration status. And at the end of the day, even if you
are a green cardholder, who has that? Pardon? You still face these
immigration penalties. It doesn't do anything in terms of keeping you in
this country, like the crime is still on your record. You still could
face detention and deportation despite that. Pardon?
Melvin Wilson
Chelsea, anything to add to how they said or
Chelsea Hicks Wise
I think it's important to continue to push Biden because he said he
would do this, and it is getting harder and harder for a lot of folks to
continue to believe in politicians. And if anything, we need to
continue to just bring up what you say you would do four years ago, and
that's the hope people bring to vote. And it's important that we do
listen to folks that have real solutions like executive orders and
legislation and continue to point people to knowing what the
administration can do. But I think as just social workers, we have to
continue to show up and push this right now because this is what our
elected officials said they would do. We're supposed to be holding them
accountable. That is what democracy is supposed to be about. And so we
just all need to do our part and continue to push Biden. But there are
many things that he can do, many experts that are continue to bring up
things that he can do, and so we're like, Hey, pick one of them.
Melvin Wilson
I didn't want to leave out Congress. You touched on it, touched on a
couple of bills. This whole issue of bipartisanship is always thrown out
there, and I know that you work so much on the hill and has such
expertise in that area, so I didn't want sound like we're just talking
about the Biden administration. Obviously the Congress itself has a
major role. Did you want to touch a little bit on that?
Marissa Perez Medina
Yeah. We would love to see Congress pass a comprehensive Descheduling
bill. The two bills that I named are really the only descheduling bills
in Congress that approach marijuana through a lens of equity, racial
justice and social justice. Again, the Moore Act in the house is a very
comprehensive bill that would deschedule marijuana re-sentence and
expunge marijuana convictions, address the collateral consequences of
marijuana criminalization such as inaccess to federal benefits because
of a previous conviction. It would also address immigration penalties as
we talked about, and it would create a pathway for folks who have been
directly impacted by prohibition to enter the regulated market, which is
vital. The Cannabis Administration and Opportunity Act in the Senate
would do the same thing. Same thing. The bills are slightly different,
but the overall provisions are pretty on par with one another. Both
bills are bills that we support that we want to see passed into law that
we want to see the president come out in support of.
But in order to get there, we got to continue to build our coalition
both on the hill and off the hill to this bill across to get a bill
across the finish line. It's exciting that both of these bills are out
there now. The more ACT has already been introduced. I think it was
reintroduced in Congress last year. The CAOA is also out there. If folks
are interested in supporting those bills, the Drug Policy Alliance has
some really good resources on both bills and ways to contact your member
of Congress and support of them. So definitely follow the Drug Policy
Alliance to stay in touch and learn how you can show support for those
bills.
Melvin Wilson
And this actually segues into both Marvin and to Chelsea about social
workers. To Marissa's point, what can social workers do nationally,
including NASW to really be a part of not only the conversation about
agenda rating and moving towards change, we talk about in practice areas
and working directly with the client population, but of course
legislation and policy or justice just as important, so for both of
because of your social work status. Could you talk about that, Chelsea,
if you wanted?
Chelsea Hicks Wise
Sure. How social workers can continue to show up and do this. Number
one, we actually have a letter that can be signed and support from
social workers to President Biden to say that we need to deschedule and
that rescheduling is not enough. So that's a simple lift that you will
be able to sign and show up for the next couple of weeks. I would also
really make a call to social workers to show up on different levels of
government and to speak out. The parental rights bill here in Virginia
was really formed and we're continuing to update it because social
workers have reached out to me in their current settings and said, this
is what's happening, and saying, this is why choices have actually been
removed from my hands and our people are at risk. So I really
appreciated what Marvin said at the top about if you're just here for
therapy, you're only doing part of the job because it's important to do
the holistic work as a professional, not just in services, and make sure
that you are helping to look at policies, regulations that can be
changed and supported and you don't have to do that work.
There are good folks like us that can do that policy work and we work
together. So joining organizations like NASW and continuing to push
back as well as critique and be like, what do y'all do in the MJC? Is it
going further? Far enough continue to ask questions like that. But I
think right now too is that there are a lot of associations and meetings
and credentials and classes and trainings about social work with social
workers, particularly around diagnosing around drug policy and
substance use. But what else are we doing as well to look at how we can
change the policy of it that actually supports our job and the folks
that we're serving even more. So let's start to include some of those
more policy conversations to the treatment conversations.
Marvin Tover
Yeah, as you ask this question, I'm thinking about most, I believe
most social workers are direct practice social workers and just thinking
about our clients, thinking about an individual who's taken away, being
held, being imprisoned, how the rest of the family is going to survive.
This is a loss of income. This is a loss for the kids. This is the loss
for the partner. If there's a partner involved. This is potentially
traumatic for multiple people involved. And many of us who have worked
in schools have seen the symptoms of kids who experience losses like
this. We see how it affects folks mental health. We see firsthand the
sadness, the pain, the utter confusion of what the hell am I going to
do? And so if we don't support the macro level bills, the laws push our
president, our local governments, everybody, we have to use ourselves.
We have to use our bodies, put our bodies on the line. Sometimes we
have to use our voices. We cannot continue to believe that oh, Chelsea
will handle it. Marissa will handle it. We have to say, I am going to do
something and I'm going to hold my other social work colleagues
accountable as well. I'm going to hold the NASW accountable as well.
This is what we need to do. We also need to recognize that some of us as
social workers are also causing this harm because some of us are doing
home visits and maybe we see marijuana in a bag. Maybe we smell
marijuana. Maybe we see a person in the household that may have been
using and we're automatically calling a child protective services on
this family when we know, all of us know the stressors that are
happening right now. And that have been happening since the pandemic and
probably before the pandemic.
There are multiple genocides happening right now. We are still, I
don't even know what's happening with the pandemic. No one really knows,
right? So as far as the economy, things are going up and our paychecks
are not, and all of that causes stress. And so for a lot of our clients,
they can't go to therapy or that sometimes can't afford therapy.
Sometimes they may not have a safe space. Sometimes they may not have
coping skills. And so marijuana may be the only thing that they turn to
on the same schedule as heroin too, by the way, which doesn't make any
sense. And I would additionally say, I'm sorry, go ahead. I would just
additionally say, let's be real. Some social workers and helpers use
marijuana as well. And so let's think about how some of us have used it.
We're not criminals though, but how other folks are using it and
they're being labeled as criminals.
Melvin Wilson
I really think that was very powerful. In fact, there's a national
conference coming up with NASW and I don't know because I'm not on those
committees, whether or not there's a panel on this. There needs to be
on that whole issue of macro involvement and the role of macro social
workers. Sometimes we do. I can get a little creaky on this, so forgive
me, but sometimes we do totally focus too much on that micro notion, and
we're not looking at that face-to-face where you're at with families.
I've been there, I've worked 20 years in this, so I understand that
face-to-face, understand the policy, understand the legislation, and
what you just brought up about the macro is really critically important.
So thank you for that.
Chelsea Hicks Wise
And Mel, can I just jump in to that point really quickly? When I was
an undergraduate and I was looking to go to graduate school, I asked so
many of my mentors, do I go micro or do I go macro? And every single one
of them told me to go micro because it's the only way you'll get a job.
It's how you'll make money. And if you ever want to switch, it'll be
easier to switch from micro to macro. I'm here to tell anyone that's
listening. Let's all change our narrative around that when young people
are coming and asking these questions. And I'm here to say that, Hey, if
you're a social worker and you're interested in macro, we need you. I
am meeting social workers all across this industry and drug policy. It's
almost a surprise that we see each other, but it shouldn't be. In fact,
we should expect to see each other there. So I really appreciate, Mel,
that you're bringing that up even to the upcoming conference, and I hope
those thoughts continue to come up because I remember when I made the
switch to macro, I wasn't confident. I didn't know if there would be a
job for me, and now I realize how important it's for me to be in this
space. So really wanted to also just kind of push that narrative change
out there for our industry.
Melvin Wilson
Yeah, I think it is important. So that's something we all need to
focus on. Marissa, I'm transitioning again, Marissa. I know there are a
lot of things coming up around advocacy in the city. I think it's on the
18th and the 20th or during that period. Could you just share with
everyone what's going on, the mobilization and the advocacy in dc?
Marissa Perez Medina
Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of activity taking place around mid
April, around four 20, a few activities in support of Descheduling, in
fact. So the last Prisoner project is leading a whole coalition of
people who are in support of descheduling, both individual and
organizations. The Drug Policy Alliance is going to be involved in that
action, which is going to consist of a lobby day that's taking place on
Thursday, April 18th, where we will go lobby in support of Descheduling
bills in Congress. The Marijuana Justice Coalition and DPA will be there
going to different senate offices and asking that people support the
Cannabis Administration and Opportunity Act. In addition to that,
there's going to be a White House visual where people can again raise
concerns that nobody has been released from federal custody because of
the pardon announcement or due to the pardon announcement, which means
we need more.
We need to release people who are currently in prison for federal
marijuana convictions. So there's going to be activity at the White
House to raise awareness around that. In addition to that, the National
Cannabis Festival is coming to DC once again, the National Cannabis
Festival holds a festival every year in DC around four 20 this year.
They're also doing a policy summit, something that they've done for the
last couple of years or so. So there'll be a policy summit in DC at MLK
Library with both lawmakers and advocates talking about federal
marijuana reform, including what we talked about today, the CSA
Descheduling rescheduling, all of that. And I might be forgetting
something, but there's a lot going on that week. If I'm forgetting
something, I know Chelsea probably knows if I'm missing anything.
Melvin Wilson
Well talk to Chelsea. Maybe she has something to it.
Chelsea Hicks Wise
Marissa has done a fantastic job. So I'll just say again, April 17th
is the Policy Summit. Come join us on the 18th is the Unity Day. We're
going to be rallying, lobbying, visual, and then the Cannabis Summit is
the 19th and the 20th where you'll be able to find these organizations,
including United for Marijuana Decriminalization and the Policy Advocacy
row. You'll be able to actually also hear in the Policy pavilion on
that Saturday four 20 more about descheduling. I believe that's at three
30. You can come check that out. You might hear a national cannabis
festival and feel like it's just a good time. We have good, we learn
good, and we really community really well too. So it's a place for a
building and not just fun. And if you can't go to any of those things in
person, we want to really push you to decriminalize marijuana.com,
decriminalize marijuana.com. And there is a petition that you can sign
to tell Biden to deschedule and decriminalize marijuana right now. And
if you're a social worker, which you probably are listening to this
podcast, you can also join our social worker letter as an individual
organization or even as a student, so many opportunities to step in.
Melvin Wilson
We're going to share some of that Marissa through information through our web pages or NASW.
Marissa Perez Medina
Is that true? Yes. So there should be links associated with this
podcast, including a letter to a petition in support of descheduling
marijuana, and then a letter for folks in the social worker community to
sign a letter in support of marijuana. And that's a letter that's going
to President Biden in support of descheduling, and that's open to
social workers, whether they're current or former, it's inclusive of
students and organizations.
Melvin Wilson
Listen, as a wrap up opportunity for all three of you to talk a
little bit about your organizations if you want to or make any closing
remark that you may want to. And I'm looking at Marissa just
coincidentally, so I'll just start with her. Anything that you want to
say?
Marissa Perez Medina
Yeah, I think this was a really powerful conversation, and I was
really happy to do this because one, I have a lot of respect for the
work that social workers do. It's a tough job and such an important job,
and I always appreciate that people care enough about our communities
to do that tough work. At the same time, it's important that you use
that power in a good way, in a way that benefits people and communities.
Here's an opportunity to do that by supporting the ending of
prohibition of marijuana, by supporting marijuana decriminalization. So I
would encourage you to get involved. It might sound intimidating if
you've never been politically engaged, but there are tons of ways to get
involved. Even listening to this podcast is a way of getting yourself
educated, having conversations with your social worker, friends or your
family members. That's one way to get engaged. But there are actionable
ways that you can take as well. So for example, if you're listening to
this podcast, you're also going to notice that there are links that'll
drive you to different petitions, our organizational webpage. So you can
learn more about this issue and sign your name, sign your name to some
letters and petitions that can really make an impact
Marvin Tover
For me. Folks can follow me mostly. I'm on Instagram at M as in
Marvin, Tover, LCSW. I have a TEDx talk that folks can listen to. I have
a Smithsonian channel feature. I'm a cycle breaker as part of Oprah's
Color of Care documentary therapist for the NBA Players Association, so a
lot of just cool things. I also offer consultation. I have a men's
group for Black Men, another podcast called Dear Black Man, you good?
And so just really, if folks want to connect with me, go to Instagram.
Go to marvintover.com. Again, social workers as one of my favorite
social workers, Kim Young Adult Black Social Worker says, if you are
just here for therapy, then social work is not for you. We need to be
making sure that we are building a better world for ourselves, for our
clients, for folks coming after us.
Melvin Wilson
And last but not least, first, Chelsea, any closing remarks?
Chelsea Hicks Wise
Thank you again for having myself on Marijuana Justice is really
excited to be part of this conversation. We're inviting everyone to come
subscribe to marijuana justice.org and follow us. We want to continue
to push that. This is so important, not just for the industry, for our
people, but particularly for black folks that are majority in the South.
We are mostly showing up in the US South. Most people of color in the
US South, most of our trans folks and families are in the South. And
without this federal action, we will continue to be the targets. We want
to encourage everyone to continue to follow us on social media at TC
Justice Now, and you can also find me on LinkedIn on X or formerly known
as Twitter at Chelsea Wise, RVA or Instagram, Chelsea, Higgs wise,
thanks so much.
Melvin Wilson
Thank you, all three of you. I think this has really been a great,
great conversation. On behalf of NASW, thank you so much for joining us,
and maybe we'll have another opportunity to follow up at some point. So
thank you very much.
Speaker 5
You have been listening to NASW Social Work Talks, a production of
the National Association of Social Workers. We encourage you to visit
NASW'S website for more information about our efforts to enhance the
professional growth and development of our members, to create and
maintain professional standards and to advance sound social policies.
You can learn more at www.social workers.org. And don't forget to
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Thanks again for joining us. We look forward to seeing you next episode.